Winchester 9mm Nato

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Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby Ranger59 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:48 am

I was looking at some you tube videos on Sccy Pistol reviews. One of them mention not to use Winchester 9mm Nato 124 gns due to them being to hot for the pistol. I was wondering if anyone here has tried them and your experience with them. I assume the Nato rounds are loaded up to a higher pressure, similar to the 5.56mm vs .223 cal in the AR platform. Thanks for any info on this.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby GoesBang » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:23 pm

I've shot them as well. No issues.

SCCY recommends light to moderate use of NATO and/or +P. You won't see that in the online manual, but I believe they have said it in the ones being shipped with new CPX's.

My local Walmart has them for $15/box.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby 9_guy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:30 pm

My owner's manual from my new CPX-2 (093xxxx) says "+P CARTRIDGES SHOULD NEVER BE USED IN THE MODEL CPX".
Last edited by 9_guy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby getvicious » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:55 pm

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_Luger and the SAAMI chart on leverguns.com http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm the 9mm Luger (Parabellum) and +P rounds are rated at:
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure.


The problem is the 9mm NATO round is not rated with the same scale used by SAAMI. So, trying to compare the same unit of measure gives this for the NATO round:
The 9 mm NATO can be considered as an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[27] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where C.I.P. rates the 9 mm Luger PTmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi).

And this for the 9mm Ruger (Parabellum) round:
According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives) guidelines the 9×19mm Parabellum case can handle up to 235 MPa (34,100 psi) piezo pressure.


Looking at the relationship between SAAMI ratings for 9mm Luger and +P and the relationship between the C.I.P. rating between 9mm Luger and 9mm NATO, I interpolate that the 9mm NATO round falls somewhere between the 9mm Luger and the +P round (closer to +P).

SCCY has previously stated that the 2nd Gen CPX Pistols may use limited amounts of +P ammo. If I can shoot limited ammounts of +P then I feel shooting limited amounts of 9mm NATO will not cause me any issue either.

This site echo's the info on the Wikipedia page: http://closefocusresearch.com/9mm-parabellum

Now I know Wikipedia is not a good source but their references are good sources. Check my conclusion for yourself by checking the references used for the Wikipedia, leverguns.com and Close Focus Research documents.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby 9_guy » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:04 pm

Thanks for the clarification. Good to know about the age of the manual.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby getvicious » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:57 pm

If you're concerned about shooting +P or NATO ammo, and what the Manual states about it, just call SCCY and ask them directly. Don't trust anybody here, get the information from SCCY and you will feel better. 8)

Lets see, about that Manual.... SCCY was founded in 2003 (http://www.sccy.com/about-us) as SKYY and forced to change their name soon after. They Changed it to the SCCY we all know. Look closely at the picture of the CPX-1 on the Manual, it is a SKYY (http://www.sccy.com/documentation). That tells us something about the age of the Manual and it's information.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby jeff7181 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:52 pm

parkerd wrote:9_guy - the owner's manual you received with your brand new SCCY is perhaps 5 or more years old and does indeed state no +P.
Forum members have been advised by Jason (SCCY's armorer) on this forum that limited use of +P is fine in newer models.
Here is a point to ponder: Since Jason has explicitly stated his comments do not reflect the opinion of SCCY, and the only existing documentation states no +P, and your CPX has a problem, and you have used +P, what do you do if SCCY refuses to honor your warranty?
I am sure Jason is honorable, but you know people change jobs all the the time.


Jason or no Jason, I think SCCY would have a hard time refusing warranty work due to the ammo type used. If they found a .40 cal round jammed in the chamber, or you machined additional metal off the slide to lighten the gun further, I can see them refusing it. But I don't think +P loads would leave such a tell tail sign of abuse. Even so... it's been stated that +P rounds can cause accelerated wear, so maybe a gun with 2000 +P rounds through it would look like a gun with 5000 Luger rounds through it, and otherwise be fine. There are people, some even on this forum I believe, who claim to have tens of thousands of rounds through their CPX, so I'd even question whether putting several thousand rounds of +P through a CPX would significantly increase wear.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby jeff7181 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:34 pm

parkerd wrote:hey Jeff781 - I agree with you. Just making a point hopefully SCCY would pick up on. I was a little confused when I bought my CPX2 and saw a different picture throughout the manual. Then I found out that the manual was already quite old. Now two years later, same old manual. Maybe you think it is a little thing, but I know far too many people who might be fussed by this.


What if my CPX didn't come with a manual so I don't know I shouldn't use +P? :)
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby GoesBang » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:14 pm

SCCY is working on a new manual as we read this forum. Jason tells me that he is one of the reviewers.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby tom47 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:06 am

9_guy - If you'll look closely at the owners manual that is currently being sent, the pistols shown are the original CPX-1 models and are labeled 'SKYY' on all of the photos. This is an original manual that was printed in mass quantities at the start of Sccy's operation evidently.

Stating not to use +P is a way to CYA against potential issues using it. My Hi Point C-9 says it can handle +P but I can't in that pistol. Felt recoil is stout with target loads. But that's my personal issue that I have to live with.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby 9_guy » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:52 pm

Thanks. Looking at the manual and other posts, I get what y'all are saying.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby gasem » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:51 pm

My experience with other non +p guns (not sccy) is they tend to fail in a sort of standard predictable way when you shoot +p,( like the mag won't seat correctly ) so its probably pretty obvious to the repair dept when you are shooting +p. The few extra ft-lbs of energy is not worth the hassle
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby bobbylee666 » Mon May 12, 2014 9:20 pm

Regarding the +P issue, here is what the current manual states (just got my gun last weekend):

Warning
+P Cartridges should only be used on a limited basis in the model CPX.
This type of ammunition creates much higher chamber pressures than standard
ammunition. Never fire more than 50 rounds of +P ammunition per session.

There is no mention that I can find regarding 9mm NATO rounds.
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby GoesBang » Tue May 13, 2014 9:13 am

I look at it this way.

I don't shoot +P ammo very often. I do have some 9mm NATO left to shoot. If I do choose to use +P I will test fire for effect, and decide if it worth keeping as a SD round only.

If so, then I will keep them loaded in a mag and use them for that SHTF moment. At the point in time I won't be concerned with my warranty. Just stopping the bad guy.
SCCY CPX-2-CB s/n 085x (Born on 4/25/13) Receiver replaced 3/14 s/n 129x
Ruger P95PR
Henry Golden Boy H004
Kel-Tec P11/P40
RIA 1911 Tactical FS 45 ACP
RIA M206 38 Special 2"

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HTTP://www.X-CalibearUSA.com
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Re: Winchester 9mm Nato

Postby Unown » Wed May 14, 2014 6:09 pm

I had some Nato rounds and posted a question about them on this forum a couple of months ago. I had previously talked to Jason about +P and he stated that he uses +P for defensive rounds. So I called and asked about the Nato rounds when that was all I could find, he said not to worry they were lower pressure then +P. The only problem I had were with the primers being harder. Most fired fine and some fired on the second trigger pull and a couple on the third. I gave them to my son and went back to WWB not because of the pressure but the primers.
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